Tuesday, November 6, 2007
Wing Chun vs. Northern Mantis
On the heels of my post suggesting that some Wing Chun guys appear to carry their center fairly high in body structure, I found this training fight. These guys are pretty evenly matched, and while this sparring session appears to go by tournament rules (no elbows, knees, kicks to the legs), it's still pretty good. The Mantis guy carries his center low, testing my theory, but the Wing Chun guy consistantly maintains positional superiority. The grappling clinches could be cleaner but they do occur, reminding us that while hitting closes the gap - grappling is inevitable. It does seem to me that there is a lot of energy wasted on high kicks, and some of the hallmarks of Wing Chun we have viewed in past posts (such as trapping skills) are not present.
Martial Development sent me a note to check out "Why Wing Chun punches never miss", which outlines some of his Wing Chun strategy, with some ideas about chain punching, positioning and timing.
As always, I appreciate everyone's input. While we have incorporated Chi Sao into our push-hands play, my working knowledge of Wing Chun is somewhat limited, so thanks for the tips!
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9 comments:
Thanks for the link. I really cannot take credit for the strategy expressed in my article; those kuen kuit came directly from Yip Man, and all HK WC sifus know them--not all follow them.
I'm just curious as to why you're putting chi sao into your push hands? I ask because as I trained them, they are very different.
Are you looking for more punching to add to your PH? If so, I would recommend xingyi instead. It blends much better than wing chun with the taiji.
Formosa Neijia
Hi Dave;
We picked up Chi Sao from Ron Ogi, Inheritor to James Demile's system. DeMile was one of Bruce Lee's students and wrote the "one inch punch" book. Included are "shut-downs" and stopping punches at "the bicep lines". Otherwise, I am not trained in other wing chun concepts. I realize that chi sao and push hands are very different in energy and neutralization concepts. We do not necessarily use them together. For instance, when we do push hands, it is just push hands. We need the sensitivity training that produces. However, in practical dojo thrashing, we typicaly employ the skills that work to stick or shut-down an attack. The blend seems to come out in this bastardization of the process. None-the-less, it all comes together. I am currently being instructed in push hands, and would like to go further in chi sao in the future.
Coming from a Tae Kwon Do, Kenpo, Aikido, Small-circle jujitsu background, I am certainly not a traditionalist.
I do envy your opportunity to have a firm grounding in your arts with the Masters in Taiwan. I'm just a Dojo Rat.
DR,
I see. Well if you get a chance to do some xingyi and bagua in a push hands format, it may open up some of the areas you're wishing to explore. But then again, playing around with the other stuff likely won't hurt. We were doing some BJJ is a push hands format the other day.
Formosa Neijia
Dave,
Thanks for the xing-yi suggestion, I do know one guy in Seattle that teaches it. I would love to check out Bagua push hands!
D.R.
I'd suggest to use a few wing tsun classes, not only JKD lessons, cause JKD has not so much of WT as most people think. JKD was revolutionary because was developed by a genious with not so deep WT training, but the geniality is on Bruce Lee, not in JKD.
Unfortunately, like other internal arts, wing tsun is not easily seen in images or videos, you have to feel it. I haven't used pushing hands, but I do train WT. In chi sao the more important things are, first, the objective is reach the foe's body (I mean body or head, beyond his arms and legs), either hitting or grappling; Second, if he pushes more than you can absorb, then deflect, if he pushes less than you can absorb then absorb, redirect, open and attack. Don't direct your sensivity to his arms or legs, but to his line of equilibrium (more or less, it would be his spine when he's standing, but it changes with his movements, just experiment it. It's the better way if you have not someone to teach you)
By the way, about the two persons in the video, neither of them seems to use wing tsun. One of the main WT points is to keep the weight in the rear leg. That way you have your forward leg completely free to kick. In the video, both men have their weight more or less equally shared between forward and rear leg.
You can see what i mean here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4Jq6H9pEQ
I agree. I have trained in honk kong with Ip Ching (Yip Mans eldest) he is the grandmaster of the system. I still train at his school here. Centerline, stance and stability are completely neglected here. There is no wing chun in this vid, from my experiences at least
This not Wing Chung!! WTF??
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